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[Father Luke]

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When critiquing, or being critiqued, what do you look for?

Some would have it that a nice:

Ah! Beautiful!

...would be sufficient. Others, more critical, or perhaps experienced,
would offer that ripping a piece to ribbons is all that matters.


Here's part of what I think. . .

I think that it really depends upon the writer.
Let's say the President's speech writers are working
on the State of the Union Adress.

Well. Fuck. It's important, right? It needs to be precise,
and it needs to be informative, and sometimes it needs to be persuasive.


What about a workshopping site where there are writers new to writing,
learning to hear their voices for the first time. Am I going to be worried
more that the writer find every fucking comma, and punctuate the cocksucker
acurately, or am I going to be more concerned with hearing the author's voice.

It's a delicate thing. I want to encourage writers, but I don't want to
feed them lies either. So there's that balance.

What do I personally look for in crits? Everything.
Call me names, call my mother names. Cal lme my mother's name.
I don't fucking care. But I want to know why. I want to learn.

I think that's the bottom line. Learning.

But there are degrees to learning. I should know my grammar.
I should know my voice. Newer writers may not have that yet.

[Tobacco]

crybaby me a>
[blub]I blah to crybaby me ge crybaby me , bla I bla't blah blub />blah blah blah quack. So blub's blah crybaby me .[/blub]

quack bla crybaby me n. blah'll blah crybaby me  no quack blah is blah to blah. I've blah quack blah blub blah, blah't crybaby me  me bla.

So bla crybaby me gement blah bla't crybaby me nt. blah blub crybaby me  crybaby me  or bla bla quack blah a bla on bla blah bla quack.

crybaby me  blub bla crybaby me ed crybaby me s, quack bla quack is quack bla blub't blah quack blub bla blah. bla't quack bla quack crybaby me ng a blub blub't blah blah blah're crybaby me  blub. At blub if it blub blah a blah of crybaby me l crybaby me nce, a la crybaby me d.

It blub blah bla quack bla crybaby me  to blah crybaby me  bla blub crybaby me nce, bla blub blah to a blub, bla bla blah blah crybaby me lly blah bla quack bla, or blah blub a blub blah blub.

It's bla quack bla've crybaby me  blub blub blub blah bla bla crybaby me  to blah blah, crybaby me  blah quack bla quack, so blah crybaby me  bla quack, bla blah quack bla quack... bla crybaby me able.

[Father Luke]

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I want to encourage writers, but I don't want to
feed them lies either. So there's that balance.

People are stubborn. They'll keep writing no matter what is said to them.

Sometimes. Yes. Other times. No. And I see your point. People are stubborn,
especially when it comes to something as personal as writing. I'll say it again:

Leave your ego at the door when writing.

It's the people who've already found their voice that are the hardest to fuck with, because most people are stupid, so most writers are stupid, and most voices are stupid... and unalterable.

What makes for a good crit?

[Tobacco]

crybaby me a>
bla crybaby me  it a blah, bla bla. crybaby me  bla blub.

crybaby me  blah. If bla is quack, bla blub bla crybaby me nce. If an blub, or crybaby me  bla blub't blah blah blah're blub, crybaby me s on my blub crybaby me ely, or crybaby me ely, I blah blah bla't blah blah blah blah blub crybaby me  blah blah quack. I bla to be quack. If a blub blub me blub to quack, "bla bla blah blub blah blub blah?" I blah to bla bla quack blah.

If a blub blub me bla quack, "blah blah quack blah blub blub bla blub blah blub?" I blah to blah bla quack blah blah to crybaby me  blub blah blah.

blah blub bla a bla crybaby me e... uh, I bla't bla blah blah, I bla't bla 'crybaby me es' blah at bla. I bla crybaby me s, bla crybaby me ly blub crybaby me  blah bla't bla up to blah. I blah blah I bla bla. blub't quack me. blah blah quack me is crybaby me  blah I blah blah a bla crybaby me e, blah crybaby me  I blah my crybaby me s, as quack I quack crybaby me e bla blah bla I blub so crybaby me  blah blub't blah a quack to bla "blah it, I'll blah blah blah bla blah blub blah bla quack blah crybaby me ucker crybaby me  he bla't blub blah crybaby me e."

It's no bla's bla to do crybaby me g blah a crybaby me e bla bla quack's. If I bla a crybaby me  blah I blah, blah crybaby me nce, blah blub bla quack blah blah crybaby me ess blah, quack, I crybaby me  on blah. quack blah't quack blub of blah bla quack blub blah. blah bla't blub bla blub quack.

[Father Luke]

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Not calling it a crit, for one. Hookers get crits.

Chits. Hookers get chits. Not crits.

I don't get 'critiques' much at all. I get comments, but generally small advices that don't add up to much. I take what I can get.

Yuh huh. Comments are for Web Logs. I see that.

It's no one's job to do anything with a critique but the writer's. If I see a comment that I know, from experience, will guide the writer into some talentless shit, though, I comment on that. People aren't always aware of what bad advice looks like. They don't gauge the ethos enough.

Critiquing the comments gets sticky. That I know.
Generally, since I know better than to wrestle with a pig,
because we both get dirty and the pig likes it, I'll just thank
someone for reading what I wrote, and drop it. Other times I say fuck it,
and critique the asshole who wanted to "help" with their awful advice.

And that's another thing. I get advice without knowing why it's offered.
Not always, but often. Like you say you get comments rather than critical
observations. If I'm to learn I need to know why. I could look it up, sure.
But I mean as long as someone is offering a critical look, and offering
insights, back it up with why -- yes? I think so.

[Jenifer]

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I think an important point Jeremy is missing here is that the critique is not for the person who is doing the critique, but for the person they are critiquing.

With experience, a person giving critique will be able to figure out, by the level of writing they are encountering, what the person they are giving critique to needs. 

If a person has not discovered yet what iambic pentameter means and they are writing a sonnet, it will do no good to give them advice on forcing rhyme.  First they need to figure out what iambic pentameter is and how to use it. 

If a person is writing free verse and doesn't know anything about rhythm, it will do no good to start telling them that they are breaking their lines incorrectly. 

Also, in a forum like this, which is smallish, we have a chance to get to know the writers here.  That's just good manners.  For instance, I know I could call Father Luke a cocksucker motherfucker and he would just smile at me and say how cute and maybe pat me on the ass.  However, I would never say that to G.K. Fralin because I know it would offend her.  And I respect her.  I don't want to offend her.  It's the same way I might tell my brother to eat shit but I would never say the same to my mother.  Different people have different morals, ethics, needs, beliefs.  It doesn't matter to me, I like them all.

Regardless of anything, there is never any reason to disrespect someone.

Just because someone doesn't know something elementary about writing does not make them stupid, or a lost cause.  It just means they haven't learned yet.  I've seen countless numbers of people come to Mary as beginning writers and actually get a lot better. 

It's obvious when someone wants to learn.  It's obvious when someone doesn't.  So I save my critique for those who want to learn.

In return, I learn from those who are respectful to me.  Father Luke has never been anything but honest to me in his critique, but he has also always been respectful.  He has always found what works and praised it and offered helpful suggestions with explanation for the things that don't.  I credit Father Luke for helping bump my writing up another level.  (Thank you, Father Luke)

Anyway, to pretend that I still don't have an enormous amount to learn would be retarded.  I will always have an enormous amount to learn and I hope I always will.  The minute I start to think I know everything is the very minute I've begun lying to myself.

And we all know how much we all value honesty.

[Father Luke]

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I like what Jenifer wrote.

Ass raping a work isn't the only way to apply critical analysis. Any thug can offer
that. Just like any retard can offer unqualified "advice".

Maybe I can say it best that when I read critically I have two separate views.

Number one may be considered, if you will permit me an analogy, the letter of the
law. The grammar is bad, the spelling is bad, there are clichés...

And number two is, to continue the analogy, the spirit of the law. The poem has some
moments. For all it's spelling errors, and clichés, it has that something running
through it which makes for a good pome.

So. We have the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law. It becomes rilly
obvious who you are dealing with when reading critically. You can jump up and down
and swear to Jesus Christ, Shiva, Lord Vishnu, and Buddha that my mom is a whore
and I eat her shit, and I'll go:

Huh. I get it. You're saying that the enjambment doesn't work for you, and my
metaphors suck ass. Okay. Let me see what I can come up with.

And the argument is that new people should also be prepared to have their lineage
questioned, to be insulted, and to have their work ripped apart to be laughed at and
scorned.

Well. It is fun to make fun of people's efforts.
And it is even helpful. Sometimes.


I think that mostly it depends upon the person being critiqued...


Hi. I am new to poetry - writing - speech making - web designing... and I was
wondering if anyone would like to look the following over to see if they can
see mistakes. I'm fairly new, so I don't know what to ask for, but I was trying to
achieve an awareness of place, and I was working on setting. I know my dialog sucks,
so suggestions there would be welcomed.


So, a lot of it is the person offering work up for critical analysis. Asking for
what you need is important, otherwise it's hard to know exactly what to offer you
that may be helpful for you.

Again. If you got value out of being ass raped in the crits you received, then pass
that along in the way it was helpful for you.

I think that's all I have to say. Except that being nicey-nice just made me sick.

- -
Okay,
Father Luke

[Corndog]

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I agree with Jen:

“I think an important point Jeremy is missing here is that the critique is not for the person who is doing the critique, but for the person they are critiquing.”

 
We all write at differing levels. Although LM is a relatively small site, there are huge differences in the experience of writers, from some who have been published, have books published or individual poems published, to people just starting out. Even I can see the difference between absolute beginners and more advanced writers.

Critics should leave their ego out of the critique. I can stand being told my writings poor, even crap… But I don’t need people to say “Man this mother Fucker’s shit”, in gangster rap, it’s simply about tone and civility, particularly with new people.

"With experience, a person giving critique will be able to figure out, by the level of writing they are encountering, what the person they are giving critique to needs.”


Literary Mary represent a hugh leap for people that have found LM after visiting what can only be called vanity sites.  LM’s has a great reputation that will improve the writing of aspiring poets. Only yesterday I read praise for LM from a recently published poet. Since I first visited I have had a number of individual poems published. I’ve got miles to go, and loads to learn, I have thick enough skin and can take the destructive tone some people generate. Some visitors to LM can’t Its not about being Mr or Mrs nicey-nice its about – Tone, encouragement, support and a love for writing poetry.

[jennymeehan]

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Great topic.

I think it's best (maybe my teacher training comes into it here) to make one or two positive comments, followed by a suggestion or area for improvement, or idea, or correction, whatever.

I don't like just getting a negative.  It would be different if it was someone that I actually knew personally and "really", because I would know more about the spirit of it.   There's so much room for mis-communication over the net. 

I couldn't care less if someone doesn't like it.  If they don't like what I have written I would rather they did not bother to write anything. 

I have found the quality of criticism I have had on this site very good, and when I get writing myself a bit more again, I hope to offer something a bit more insightful here and there myself.

I think it's important that the crit is for the poem and not the person.  Sometimes if people don't actually agree with your message or point of view, it's very easy to reject something which might actually be quite valuable.  I have had someone making comment on my faith, like, "how could anyone who claims to be a Christian say that", type thing. That's just no go. We are not here to question eachother, hopefully we are hear to read writing, and learn something!

Jenny

[Tobacco]

crybaby me a>
[crybaby me a blah bla't blah blah I blah crybaby me  I blub quack blah bla bla quack to blub crybaby me g.  [/blub]

bla?

[crybaby me a blah bla or bla crybaby me e crybaby me s,[/blub]

blah, blah's an crybaby me ker, bla blah if bla or bla crybaby me e quack bla blub. crybaby me tly, crybaby me  crybaby me e is blub, bla blub blub up bla bla blah bla't do.

[Jenifer]

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off topic and so seventh grade:

everytime i read this i keep reading 'What's in a Clit'

carry on.

 

[Father Luke]

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everytime i read (the topic) i keep reading 'What's in a Clit'

Wait.
It's on the tip of my tongue.
Don't tell me. . .

[Sana]

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off topic and so seventh grade:

everytime i read this i keep reading 'What's in a Clit'

carry on.

 

It's a freudian phenomena, Jen. 

[MsWizard]

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off topic and so seventh grade:

everytime i read this i keep reading 'What's in a Clit'

carry on.

 

It's a freudian phenomena, Jen.  

*laughing* That was great Sana!

Off topic more. Jen, you are such a warm blanket. I hope you understand what I mean by that. I came like a kindergardner, teeth pressed together, clutching my armful of offerings tightly determined to lay them proudly in front of the class with childish hopeful eyes and fell into a vat of ice shards. They are slowly melting and Im in the comfort of your warm blanket and soothing tones telling me what I NEED to hear in the way I WANT to hear, and gently letting me know that there are times I need to LISTEN to what I do NOT want to hear. Truly a loving experience. 

[jennymeehan]

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Wait.
It's on the tip of my tongue.
Don't tell me. . .






Haaaahhhhhh! Haaahhhh !  (This is such an inadequate means of expressing laughter!)

Every time I go on this forum at the moment I get a laugh, most enjoyable!!!

Jenny