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Jenifer
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« on: July 06, 2009, 01:37:06 AM » |
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Recently, I found myself disagreeing with something Father Luke had to say on a thread in poetry. This thread to be specific: http://literarymary.com/forum/index.php?topic=10835.0I've been experimenting with
an objectivity.
I did this.
They did that.
She, he, him, the postman's dog...
If a pome has something to say,
metaphorically -- and why write posey
without metaphor? -- then write the thing
and leave the ego out of the fucker.
My original response was this:
leaving the ego out, while popular among a certain set and certainly trendy, has always been overrated as far as i'm concerned.
leave the sentimentality out, sure.
but each poem, being unique, requires it's own unique formula. poetry is not math.
and it is possible for the poem itself to be the metaphor.
we're going to have fun here. i can tell.
Dictionary.com defines 'ego' as this: e⋅go
/ˈigoʊ, ˈɛgoʊ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ee-goh, eg-oh] Show IPA
Use ego in a Sentence
–noun, plural e⋅gos.
1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.
2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.
3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.
5. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy.
a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.
6. Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships. If, what Father Luke is referring to is the removal of the 'I' from work to make it better, I must disagree. I believe that good poetry lets the poem write itself, using whichever devices fit the particular poem at that particular time. To consider that a piece will automatically be better if the ego is removed is to reduce poetry to a formula. Poetry is not math, although some math can be considered poetry. It should be noticed that I may choose to edit the nature of this debate if I have somehow misunderstood Father Luke's intentions with his statement. |
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Tobacco
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2009, 01:35:36 AM » |
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Y crybaby me ome crybaby me ast
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Jenifer
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2009, 01:42:20 AM » |
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Can't identify with your narrator? How about maybe the reader can learn something or other about the narrator and about life that they might not have if the piece were tailored for their easy understanding. Like I said, I am not saying anyone should use it poorly, or ANY device poorly, but merely that it is a device that, used correctly and in the correct situation, is both necessary and correct. |
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Jenifer
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2009, 01:43:24 AM » |
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And Jeremy, I never said it should be done poorly. And I could quote a billion large press and formal poems that are also shit that don't use 'I'. |
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Tobacco
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2009, 01:48:30 AM » |
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Y crybaby me me bla crybaby me me bla
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Father Luke
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2009, 01:48:36 AM » |
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Can't identify with your narrator?
How about maybe the reader can learn something or other about the narrator and about life that they might not have if the piece were tailored for their easy understanding.
Well, sure. Imagine a "generic" Huck Fin. It would suck. And it was filled with
both colloquialisms, and dialect.
My point is that I don't want to read little boys and little gurlz
writing "What I did on my summer vacation".
At least not all the time.
Like I said, I am not saying anyone should use it poorly, or ANY device poorly, but merely that it is a device that, used correctly and in the correct situation, is both necessary and correct. That's what I'm talking about. |
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"The castigation of fools is, of course, an ancient and honorable task of writers and, unless very poorly done, an enterprise that will usually entertain those who behold it." ~ Richard Mitchell |
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Tobacco
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« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2009, 01:49:44 AM » |
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 02:41:47 AM by Undernether »
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Y crybaby me me me bla crybaby me me me bla
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Jenifer
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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2009, 01:20:42 PM » |
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It is an incorrect assumption that free verse is easy to write. I think it's actually harder. Formal poetry gives you everything you need to create what you need to create. It's like following a recipe. A little practice and everyone can make a cake. Free verse is like trying to bake a different cake each time never having a recipe to follow. You have to retain a whole lot of cake baking knowledge to get them to come out good every time. Bad poetry, regardless of whether or not it retains form, is what is easy. |
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Tobacco
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2009, 01:26:21 PM » |
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crybaby me a>
[blub]bla quack, crybaby me ess of crybaby me or bla it crybaby me blah, is blah is blah.[/blub]
bla, bla bla're blub blah bla bla blah blub is quack to blub blah blah's quack 'quack.' It bla't. quack crybaby me s quack crybaby me on to crybaby me es, bla bla blub it's blub. It's blah crybaby me . quack blub bla blah crybaby me ing blah blub bla, quack it bla be quack.
blah blub bla't blah blah 'quack' blub bla. If it blah, it's bla blah blub crybaby me .
blah to bla, blub crybaby me :
quack blah bla crybaby me ute crybaby me blah I, blah quack it's blah, blah bla blub of crybaby me ty is crybaby me ating in an blub of blah. blah crybaby me bla be crybaby me to crybaby me g, bla at bla quack, I bla't bla blah crybaby me g quack quack bla crybaby me blub to crybaby me ate crybaby me quack bla of it's blah, I bla a blub crybaby me d of crybaby me crybaby me blah bla blub blah.
It's bla crybaby me quack bla't bla quack crybaby me on to blub blah. blah bla't. It's so crybaby me crybaby me .
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Y crybaby me me me me bla crybaby me me me me bla
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Jenifer
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2009, 01:42:39 PM » |
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No, formal verse cannot have everything free verse can, or it would not be formal. It's the same either way. Say what you will, but just because you see more examples of bad free verse, because free verse is more prevalent and written more often by those who cannot see the subtle qualities free verse retains, does not mean that free verse is any easier to write than formal verse. There are plenty of examples of horrible formal verse, by people who are following syllable count to the number. Just check WF.com. Poetry is an art, regardless of which method you are using. And art is often done and done badly in all mediums. |
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Father Luke
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« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2009, 06:49:23 AM » |
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 Ego in Writing I'm still against berets. |
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"The castigation of fools is, of course, an ancient and honorable task of writers and, unless very poorly done, an enterprise that will usually entertain those who behold it." ~ Richard Mitchell |
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Jenifer
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« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2009, 12:34:05 PM » |
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And by the way, everything in life is writable about if you have the outgoing guts to do it, and the imagination to improvise. The worst enemy to creativity is self-doubt. ~Sylvia Plath |
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Sana
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« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2009, 12:50:21 PM » |
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yep. & I love that quote. |
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Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question
To say: "I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all"
T.S. Eliot
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Tobacco
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« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2009, 12:52:36 PM » |
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Y crybaby me me me me me bla crybaby me me me me me bla
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Sana
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« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2009, 01:01:24 PM » |
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guts? people do, but only momentarily. |
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Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question
To say: "I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all"
T.S. Eliot
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Sana
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« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2009, 01:02:15 PM » |
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what matters is recognizing those moments and acting on them. the rest of the time, we are probably writing bullshit. |
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Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question
To say: "I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all"
T.S. Eliot
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Conversation and Pie
